The MK-ULTRA Scientist Who Channeled Alien Gods | Greg Mallozzi

Puharich could very well have sort of singlehandedly kicked off the entire MK-ULTRA program. You can just place him exactly at the point where all of this took off. The Nine are basically the best way to describe them, like a group of nonhuman intelligent beings, but apparently they sort of oversee humanity. I guess they've been watching, and they're kind of seeing what's going to happen with Earth. This guy, Vinod, he channeled them for the first time, and Puharich and the group there were all shocked. Maybe this bigger phenomenon is that these kids are getting this power through some other intelligence, and there's tons of sessions of him regressing in a sense these space kids and seeing if there's some connection there to another civilization. And according to him, there is. These kids would remember a past life of being on another planet, being in another part of another civilization, remembering that they were born on Earth as a sort of hybrid type thing, all that kind of stuff. This guy Peter Hurkos and another psychic, they would both take the amanita and allegedly were able to read each other's minds, read writing on a book or a piece of paper that was in another room, astral travel, all sorts of stuff like that were basically unlocked. You're sitting on not only this, but a lot of documents, a lot of recordings. Do you worry, like, I don't know if I should know this, I don't know if I should have this. Do you think you're sitting on classified stuff? Yeah, definitely. So, Greg, it's kind of crazy, because if there were a figure that encompassed all the major through-lines of Third Eye Drops, it might be Puharich, dude. He's at the center of psi, classified programs, UFO stuff, esoteric stuff, things at the fringe of consciousness. And there's so much we don't know about him, but it seems like you've dug up some unbelievable information with this documentary. And I did watch it. It's insane. And it also just leaves so much on the table, leaves so many open questions. But yeah, man, I'm so stoked for this conversation. It's going to be a crazy one, I think. Yeah. Thanks for having me. And that is true. There's stuff that I don't know still after spending over ten years working on it. So we may never know some things. So I think we have to do the preliminary, just define who this guy is. What are the broad strokes of his story? Yeah. Puharich, he started off as a legitimate medical doctor. He went to Northwestern University in Chicago, which is one of the top schools, and he was on a path to being a medical doctor. He graduated there. His father-in-law was like a big surgeon in Chicago, and there's all these letters that we had in his archives of his father-in-law recommending him for jobs all over the country. And I think they wanted him to do that with his life. But his path changed because early on, this would have been probably mid-40s, when he was in medical school he got interested in ESP and psychic phenomena and so forth. And that kind of set him on this path that he ultimately went on. But he started out somebody, and he even talks about it himself, like he was very skeptical about a lot of this and it took him a lot to kind of open up to a lot of the things that he ultimately wound up spending his life doing. He was a doctor. He had met a violinist who was a really popular classical violinist, and this guy lived up in Maine, coastal Maine. It was some connection through a Croatian society, because Puharich was Croatian, and this guy was part of that group and they met somehow. But basically this guy and his wife were very into Eastern religions and all sorts of things like that. And Puharich claims at that time he had never looked into any of this. It was totally new to him. And this violinist was the one who tipped him off to a lot of these things like ESP, telepathy. And that's what got him very interested in it. He would visit this guy in Maine, they would talk a lot about these things. And that ultimately got him to say, well, I'm either going to be a medical doctor, which now seems boring because of all this new stuff I'm learning. So he had to choose a path there and ultimately became this pioneering psychic researcher. Yeah. And this is just an interesting time in the philosophical history of the West as well, because you're starting to get this sort of theosophical kind of interest where it's this multicultural thing, religions from the East, ancient esoteric traditions, interest in ESP, and depending on once we go deep into the 40s, also UFOs start coming into the fold as well. So he's living in this interesting time where there's this aggregation of all of these ideas and he somehow becomes a human flash point for all of these things. And doesn't he from this point first write a book that's theorizing some things about vital energy and ESP and stuff like that? Isn't there an early book he wrote? Well, his first book is called Beyond Telepathy. And this came out in 1960, but it was actually written all throughout the 50s. And all the information in the book he's referencing were experiments and tests that were done in the 50s. But that was his first book. And that was his introduction into this world of like, I'm now somebody who is seriously studying psi phenomena. And it's really hard to read because it's so scientific. I have a copy of it. I have a few copies of it. It's become one of these books now that's hard to find, like $200 on eBay. But it's really hard to read because it goes deep. That was the first time I really saw how intelligent he was, because he's talking very deep about telepathy and other ESP, how they work, how they can work, the tests he's done. There's charts in it, diagrams, it's really complex. So it's not just his crazy writings about it. This was him really going deep, testing this stuff with alleged psychics at the time. Do you know the broad strokes of how he was thinking about that at this time, mechanistically? Because it seems like maybe later on we have probably more to go on, but early on what was he thinking in terms of how ESP and psi phenomena might work? Well, first of all, he was introduced to a psychic woman named Eileen Garrett. Have you heard of her? Well, through you, yeah. She's pretty popular and there's a lot of stuff out there now of her. She wrote a book. But he had met her, and that was the first true psychic he met, in his story he tells, where she would do things that were just amazing that he couldn't explain. And she could pick up on what you were thinking. The classic thing where he would call her and say what am I looking at, and she would say it. Stuff like that, which in the early 50s is pretty hard to cheat on, right? But to answer your question, I think early on he talks a lot about the nervous system, and how the nervous system is capable of receiving information from the outside world. He talks a lot about it, it's in the film, how a tree has roots that go into the ground and how the nervous system and the body have roots that go outwards, and that's able to pick up on information, pick up on communication potentially. So it was a lot of that, the human body is capable of way more than people think. And so his early tests were mostly in the Faraday cage, which he went on to use pretty much his whole life. But to get more to your question, I think he began to realize that when people were put in a Faraday cage, which basically blocks out any electromagnetic frequency, it's like total silence, when they were in that environment, their body was more attuned to be able to receive information or perform telepathy experiments. And so a lot of the early years, a lot of it was 50s, people know about his lab in the 50s, but he was doing this even 45, 46, much earlier than that. So he had some theories about being blocked off in that Faraday cage environment making certain people much more open to be able to have ESP abilities. Yeah, I always thought that was interesting about Faraday cages, because you could also assume the opposite. You would think, oh, how do I make myself more available for outside signals to get in, but really, paradoxically, it seems like you want to be completely isolated from any outside electromagnetic noise. And you want the brain or the subject's consciousness to be totally isolated from any kind of input, which could say a lot about what's going on and what's not going on. Because as you obviously know, it seems like they really tried to hunt for whatever the source of this psychic signal was throughout Stargate, throughout MK-ULTRA maybe to some degree. And it doesn't seem like they ever found it. At least most people I know now, like our mutual friend Adam Curry, he seems to think that it's still elusive and they don't really understand how it works, how psi could work, how ESP could work. So at what point do things take a turn for Puharich where he's a medical doctor, he starts to get interested in ESP, but things go in a decidedly crazier direction with his life, and what is the genesis of that? Well, it's funny, because I don't want to get into the Nine stuff so early, but it kind of happens very early in his timeline, which is in the film, but I don't know if a lot of people know. So he's doing a lot of these normal ESP tests at his lab, which is in Glen Cove, Maine, on the coast of Maine. And he's doing a lot of stuff with the Faraday cage with this woman Eileen Garrett. But I think you're right about the elusive aspect to it, because even with him back then, he would bring a lot of people in, sometimes people from around the world, because they were allegedly psychic, and even back in the 50s he was filtering through people who were better at doing these tests with him. Because some people, there's a lot of stories who like, they just weren't able to perform, and other people would be like ten times better. He did a lot of experiments with sending those meters, I can't remember what they're called, it's like a pen and they go like this, they read seismic activity. Oh yeah, like a seismograph or something. They would send a tone somehow to that seismograph and the psychics could guess within like a millisecond before it was going to hit. So they would say like now, and then literally less than a second later it would hit the seismic stuff. People could do that, whereas other people were like, you, use this basically. So he was filtering people early on like that. But the turn was basically in 53, or 52 rather, was the whole meeting with this guy Dr. Vinod. Who was an Indian mystic, I guess you could call him. But he was one of the many psychics or mystics or people who would just come there to his lab because they were interested in what he was doing, or friends of his, or other researchers would tip him off to people. But this guy Dr. Vinod was from India, and he apparently had psychic abilities, but he was also a really interesting person himself because he was involved with the World Organization of Religions, I think it was called, and he would travel around to different countries and he came to the United States in the early 50s, and he would give lectures about theosophy and all sorts of mysticism and stuff like that. But also he was apparently a psychic, and he was one of these people who was never open about it. But Puharich heard through the grapevine that he could do stuff. So anyways, he goes there in 52 to Puharich's lab and he's the first guy who allegedly, the story goes, fell into a trance and started channeling the Nine, where the Nine came through him. And the Nine of course are this group of nonhuman intelligent beings that speak through someone. So the Nine are this group of nine beings, but they come through as sort of one voice, and apparently they oversee humanity. I guess that's the typical story, where they've been watching, and they're seeing what's going to happen with Earth and the people on Earth. But this guy Vinod channeled them for the first time, and Puharich and the group there were all shocked at what was going on here, and they started to take it seriously, so they would then hypnotize him so he could channel better. I think this is the first time that he really started hypnotizing people to do this. But the point is that there's a turn here, because this guy Vinod started channeling the Nine, and that became this huge part of his life that he basically chased until he died. That was the turn from telepathy experiments, ESP experiments, to, okay, all of a sudden this guy's now allegedly channeling this nonhuman intelligence, and let's start recording him and seeing what he has to say. And was the Round Table already formed at this time? Let's talk about that a little bit, because he ends up getting funded by this consortium of super-wealthy individuals who are interested in these same topics, like a lot of old money. You know the story and the details better than I do. Yeah, so it's kind of murky exactly how this started, but essentially it was this group of very wealthy individuals in New England who basically took Puharich under their wing because he was so charismatic and smart about talking about these ideas and theories, and they were all obsessed with him and what he was doing. So they set up this lab for him, which essentially was this huge barn that wasn't used. This farmer let them use it and they turned it into this huge laboratory. And then he lived in this mansion that was next to it. And they would go back and forth from the mansion to the Round Table lab, which was the barn. And that's where all this stuff took place. That's where the first Nine channeling took place. But it was all these very influential people, and it's murky because at that same time you're getting army people coming in and intelligence people coming in into the mix, wanting to be involved in this and wanting to see what is possible with this. And so it's definitely a fact that it was started by some of these wealthy individuals, but he was also at that time early on getting grants from the Navy and from Army intelligence. That's a fact. We have documents. So it was sort of a mix of both of that funding coming in for him at that exact time. And it's interesting to think that the intelligence community folks were there when this Nine channeling stuff was happening. Oh, they were. And yeah, that I think has sprouted these crazy conspiracies that exist about the Nine, and was it real? Was it an early psyop thing? And the author Peter Levenda talks a lot about this. But I think that's what started a lot of conspiracy surrounding this, because those people were very much there right when this guy was allegedly in a Faraday cage channeling the Nine. So it does make you think, what was going on there? What interest did they have? Were they seeing this as something that was real to them, or was this something they were thinking we can use this for other purposes? So I can understand the conspiracy starting through that. [Intermission: Michael plugs the Third Eye Drops Patreon and member library.] So you've got this Indian mystic who goes into a trance, he starts channeling this mysterious group of higher intelligences called the Nine. What, in this first session, what's being said? What are these entities saying through this guy? Well, we have all the recordings, probably not all of them, but a fair amount of them, which were kept and miraculously the quality is really good. You can hear it really well, because this was like 53, 54 a lot of them. But basically, it's strange because it doesn't really sound like channeling. Some of them don't really sound like that. It just sounds like almost like he's lecturing or something, like he's just sitting there and he's talking. But some of them you can clearly hear them doing the countdown protocol to get him into a hypnotic state. And then he starts channeling and you can clearly hear him sounding a little different on those. So perhaps some of them were just lectures. Obviously it's not video, so it's hard to tell what was going on. But a lot of the early stuff was very similar to a lot of the early contact stuff of that time, about how they are monitoring us, they're monitoring Earth, they're trying to help Earth, they're trying to help us not get into a nuclear war. It's interesting because a lot of those tapes, they're naming, they're talking about Stalin, they're talking about these figures at that time, and these people need to be stopped, and a lot of that early contact-y sort of language where they're monitoring us and making sure we don't kill ourselves basically. So there's a lot of that. But there's also, which is very interesting, a lot of communications from the Nine that are basically telling Puharich and his group what they can do to enhance the communication. So for instance, they're saying, you have to use copper in the Faraday cage because that enhances the communication, it enhances the transmission, it helps the people within the cage bring through our messages better. And it's crazy because there's images of them literally reworking the Faraday casing, lining it with copper. So to some degree they were taking seriously this information that they were getting from the Nine and implementing it in their laboratory setup. And there's tons of that communication. It has to be grounded to the earth in a certain way. There's images of them altering it so it's more grounded to the earth inside the lab. So they clearly were taking this seriously early on, because there's time and money that goes into altering this huge box, and they were doing it based on that information they were receiving. I was saying this to you before, but channeling is one of those topics that I'm always reluctant to go too deep into, because it's just so ripe for nonsense, and there's so many opportunities for this kind of weird performative fugue state that people seem to be able to train themselves to go into. But that said, particularly when I start looking, I'm obviously into ancient esoteric traditions, and part of what you see in ancient stories, there's oracles all the time that seem to be able to go into these trance states and channel information from some deity or some higher intelligence. And it's always this crazy, poetic, psychedelic-seeming transmission of stuff that is to me very compelling actually. But with modern stuff, it often comes off as very handwavy, very cliche, like you're saying a lot without really saying anything. But what really fascinates me about Puharich and the Nine is that often does not seem to be the case. Like you were telling me before, you have all these tapes, you have this insane library that very few human beings have ever heard. And you said some of the channeling, maybe this is jumping the gun, but you said some of it is with these so-called space kids who certainly are not highly technically trained in any field, spitting out math equations and saying very technical things and talking about stuff that they're clearly not educated in. And this other example of how to insulate a Faraday cage better, this kind of stuff is very interesting and very compelling to me. When you're actually getting technical information coming from these channeling sessions, that's the kind of stuff that really makes me pay attention. Well, same here. And we don't even have to jump ahead. Even with this guy Vinod in the 50s, there's this thing called the brown notebook that Puharich called it. I'm happy to post it or share it, but this was this notebook that this guy Vinod would give these equations and he would write them all down. And it's not a huge notebook, it's probably this thick. But it is so crazy because apparently he would just say stuff, and a lot of these sessions when the people come back, they don't remember. Especially with the space kids, but I think with this guy Vinod, he wouldn't remember what was said or what had happened during the session. So he would just blurt out these equations and Puharich is frantically writing them down, this brown notebook. And I've been honest, I put them in ChatGPT. I've tried all sorts of stuff. But again, it goes back to a little bit of what we were talking about earlier where I just think it was perhaps so advanced that the world maybe wasn't ready for it or something. But he certainly took down all these equations, and you can even see in his own writing he's like, question marks, he's referring to certain things. It'd be one thing if it's just peace and love and this kind of stuff, but it kind of makes it a whole different animal when this person's spitting out all this crazy complex stuff they're writing down and then trying to figure out what it all means. It's more fun. So it's hard to decide where to go in this conversation, because you can continue with the Nine and all this novel information they seem to be imparting not just through this Vinod guy, but successive channels throughout Puharich's life. But then there's all these other fascinating chapters too that come before. He obviously gets pulled in deeper into the military-industrial complex and into the three-letter agencies and classified things he seems to be involved in. And maybe you can speak to how deeply you think he was involved with MK-ULTRA. It seems like Annie Jacobson says in Phenomena that he's specifically involved with MK-ULTRA subproject 80? I think 58. 58, yeah. But that specifically has to do with using mushrooms, right? And using mushrooms as an adjunct for enhancing psychical states, mind control, all kinds of different stuff. So let's go there. What era would that have been in and how much of a there there is there? Well, an interesting point to make before talking about the mushroom thing is there's a tape in the Vinod sessions, the very early ones. You can imagine the setup is basically what would have been a 1950s tape recorder in this Faraday cage, because it was big enough where several people could be in there with Vinod while he was doing this session. And so one of the recordings you can clearly hear, whoever it was, I'm not sure who it was, it wasn't labeled, but someone is in the session with them and they're saying, okay, such-and-such general is going to be here tomorrow and he's going to come and he's going to sit in, and what can you do and what can you say to him to convince the army that this is a useful endeavor that they should be funding. I'm paraphrasing, but he's basically saying, this guy's coming tomorrow, he's from the army, we need to convince him that all this stuff we've been doing here is legitimate, so what can you do for us in this setting? And that proves right there that early on the army, it was a whole list of them at that time, but they were going to sessions, and that's crazy to think about. I've looked this general up, the name off the top of my head I can't remember, but he was a very high-up Army intelligence guy, and they're basically saying he's going to come sit in with us tomorrow. So there's so much conspiracy about, was that really happening and how much were intelligence people involved, and it's like, well, there you have it. They were sitting in on a channeling session. So what they went on to do with that I think is the big question mark. And I have some theories. But the mushroom thing, that was a whole other chapter, but also a big interest of his. The way I got interested in Puharich actually is because of his book The Sacred Mushroom. And that was right after his first book Beyond Telepathy, same thing, he had written it all in the 50s. Actually that one was published in 59, in fact that was before Beyond Telepathy, which is pretty interesting that he was talking about this stuff in 59. That was very early. But the book is basically about his theories that taking psychedelic mushrooms enhances your state of mind, your ESP abilities. He did all sorts of experiments with this. I read that book many years ago and was just fascinated by it. This is right around the time I was getting into this whole world of stuff and I just thought, man, who is this guy? A little less complex than Beyond Telepathy, but still very scientific, but it's a little more of a story about his interest in this stuff. It's a really good book. I'm sure you mentioned Levenda before, and there is a chapter in I think Sinister Forces, or Secret Machines: War, I'm not sure if you've read that, but it goes fairly deep into Puharich, and he's talking about a lot of what's going on in this whole period of time. The story with how mushrooms were discovered by the West has all to do with Wasson, right? And going down to Mexico. That's right. Gordon Wasson. Well, in fact, Puharich did it before him. Oh, wow. That's just not really on the public record. In fact, in the archives there's a ton of letters between Gordon Wasson and Puharich, and those pretty much prove that he had taken a trip to Mexico before. This is probably the connection from that book that I'm forgetting, because I know he's talking about Puharich, I know he's talking about Wasson and mushrooms, and I know he's also talking about how closely related all of this is to the intelligence agencies in a way that most people don't know. So yeah, all these wires especially during this time are crossed, and it seems like all these people are double-dipping, they're involved in these huge cultural movements and philosophical movements and things going on in larger society, but then they're also in the background involved with intelligence agencies. It's such a tangled web of intrigue and ideas and things that may or may not be real and supernatural stuff and so much more. We're barely scratching the surface even at this point in the conversation. Annie Jacobson, for those who don't know, is a great author, just wrote a book, Phenomena, which is all about, I think the subtitle is the CIA's secret investigation into extrasensory perception. She's got a whole chapter about him, she's in the film, but she suggests that Puharich could very well have singlehandedly kicked off the entire MK program. Because he was there, you can just place him exactly at the point where all of this took off. He was in contact with Sidney Gottlieb, who people kind of all know that name from the MK-ULTRA projects, I think he ran it for most of the time in the early years. But he was just there. So basically what happened was, Puharich had already been doing a lot of mushroom experiments, like I just said in The Sacred Mushroom. He had this theory that a certain one, it was called the amanita muscaria, for whatever reason enhanced psychic ability. So he had already been doing a lot of research about this. And like I said earlier, the various agencies had already infiltrated his Round Table lab, or had already seen his work, the ESP stuff, and they were also interested in the stuff he was doing with mushrooms. So again, this would have been like 52, 53. But basically, he was sent, and it's really interesting because there was an old show that was on ABC in the late 50s and the 60s called One Step Beyond. And it was this news anchor guy who would look at different topics. But one of the episodes, they go to Mexico with Puharich and they're hunting for the sacred mushroom. I think I've seen clips from this. Yeah, it's been taken off YouTube but it's back on there. I think the episode came out in 1960, but it was filmed before that. They send a camera crew for this show, they go, they find the mushrooms, they bring them back. He tests them on the host. The host is literally, you can see it, sitting there, he ingests them. They do a classic, unless they're faking it for the show, but they do the classic Zener card test where it's blocked off from his vision and then he guesses it correctly. And then he does another test where he's holding the page of a book which is an image of a waterfall, and Puharich asks what's on this page, and he says something like flowing water, he totally got it. [Clip from One Step Beyond, the test subject describing the image:] "It has a great deal, it has a power of, like, noise. I don't know how to translate that into a picture. It seems to have that noise and speed. There's a face looking this way and another face is looking that way." "That's pretty good. Would you like to take a look and see what it's like?" "Anything is probably nice." So it's interesting, I don't know if it was faked. But anyways, he was bringing those back on behalf of the CIA and the army while he was on that trip filming the show. It was almost like that show was a front in a way for him to go there, gather information, bring things back. Because once again, a lot of the archives we have are letters and correspondence that date all the way back to this time, and he's clearly naming names of certain individuals who were involved in those agencies who were funding his research at this time. And I know that in 1953, I think this is out there online somewhere, he presented a paper that he wrote and it was called something like the potential uses of ESP in psychological warfare. And he went to the Pentagon and presented that paper. And in that paper, it not only talks about his ESP work, but it also talks about this research with mushrooms and how it can enhance abilities, or how it can also put people in certain states of being controlled. But what's interesting is that the paper is titled uses in psychological warfare. So that makes you think they're lecturing about that to a room of people interested in that. So of course there's probably a lot that's classified. The point is all that mushroom stuff he was doing was right before the very year that the first MK-ULTRA program started. It was right there. And pretty much everything he was doing was implemented in those early tests. He was also involved in a lot of the early LSD tests, he writes a lot about this as well. So Annie Jacobson, which is true, talks about how he was just this figure who was there and very well could have kickstarted this whole thing, but he's just unknown and people don't know about him. And maybe that's a good thing because they can't bring all this back to one person. But that's how I think he initially got his foot in the door with the intelligence community, which obviously followed him the rest of his life. Did you see this thing just recently that supposedly a whole bunch of MK-ULTRA files were bouncing back and forth between like ODNI or Tulsi Gabbard and CIA, and she had these files and then they came and took the files and she demanded the files back? It's crazy how much we still to this day, it's so controversial, there's so much we don't know. The CIA is still totally trying to brush these facts aside and pretend they destroyed all the documents, or someone destroyed all the documents, but clearly it seems like there's still a lot there that they don't want to talk about. And yeah, man, it would be so interesting to know not just the dirty laundry of what they did and what was done, but also there could be direct implications for human consciousness technologies, capacities we may have, protocols that one could use maybe to enter deeper states of consciousness. That would be nice to know. I think the thing with those files, I suspect that if these files are found or put out, Puharich's name would certainly be in them. There's just no question, because a lot of files that we have in his archives look like photocopies. And someone who knew him had also mentioned to me that at one point later in his life, he was frantically photocopying tons of stuff because he was worried that they might go missing or something might happen to him. But he's clearly trying to keep a record of things that he was involved in, ultimately with the idea of warning people and warning humanity of this and trying to help. That's a big misconception of Puharich that I've dealt with now that I've been talking a lot more publicly about him in the film. There's a lot of people out there who think he was this monster, evil-genius sort of guy who, his whole life was based around manipulating people and being involved in these terrible programs. But it's just not the case. Yes, he was involved in a lot of this stuff, but he ultimately was able to go out there in his later years and lecture and be very open about things he was involved in, things he had done. That could very well be the reason he may have died, or definitely the reason his house was firebombed in the 70s, because he really broke whatever oath he took. He would lecture at various conferences all over the country, all over the world. He was going to Europe and he was literally saying like, I did this, I did that, I worked with this person, I did all the early LSD experiments. Because he was saying this is what has been done and this is what will continue to happen. He was trying to warn people. And I think that was his way of getting off his chest some of these more negative things that he had been involved in in his life. Whereas there's other people who may have just gone to their grave having worked on these programs, but he didn't take that path. He very clearly was like, I'm going to warn people, I'm going to tell people what I know to try to help. So hopefully the film portrays that, which I think it does, because most things you look up on him are pretty negative. There's this one guy on YouTube, I don't even remember his name, but he has all these videos and he was horrible, and he locked people in cages, it's just not true. So I'm not out on some tour to put a redemption arc on him. It's just annoying because he really was trying to help people and give information to people and give out what he knows, and I think that cost him unfortunately. Yeah, it's too bad how having a pretty clean motivation, a pretty natural human curiosity to be inclined toward investigating these topics, often is going to inevitably lead you into these realms where it gets twisted and used for things you didn't initially intend it to be used for. I can see how once you get sucked into that realm, you're probably coerced into doing it, or it slowly gets so normalized that it doesn't seem like this malevolent thing, when in some cases it probably was. But that's not because he's this monster who has all these evil machinations, it's because that's what happens when you get pulled into the military-industrial complex. They're going to look for ways to operationalize these compounds. And you're going to break people's brains when you dose them up with huge amounts of mushrooms or LSD and then try to get them to do stuff. I'm curious, with this experimentation with psychedelics, was there anything else in particular other than trying to enhance psychical abilities, or like, I'm assuming there were probably some kind of mind-control sorts of goals involved with certain aspects of it? Well, I think you said it perfectly. His initial research and interest was this idea that he claimed to have proven that people under the influence of the amanita muscaria had these latent ESP abilities that would open up once they took this, and they could communicate. He did a lot of experiments. So sorry to cut you off, so amanita muscaria wasn't like a psilocybin mushroom? Well, I think he experimented with lots of them. But that particular one, which I believe has some sort of psychedelic effect. Yeah, it's a totally different substance though. I don't have experience with it, but most people that do say it's a totally different thing, it's not a tryptamine, it's I think it's like muscimol or something is the drug. And it's a very different effect. So it's not like your standard kind of psychedelic that most people would imagine. I know that. And what he would do is he would take the oil from this mushroom and rub it into a certain area of your scalp on your forehead, and for some reason that oil in that area is what did the trick to enhance this stuff. So he did a lot of the amanita stuff, but he would basically put these two, you know, Peter Hurkos, have you heard that name? I've heard it and I'm not placing it. He's one of these early psychics who was kind of like an early Geller. He was a psychic guy that got really famous, but apparently he had some pretty legitimate abilities. This guy Peter Hurkos and another psychic, they would both take the amanita muscaria, or get it applied, and allegedly were able to read each other's minds, read writing on a book or a piece of paper that was in another room, astral travel, all sorts of stuff like that were basically unlocked by this specific way that you would apply the amanita muscaria. But it was very rough on these psychics. One of them, we interviewed the wife of this one psychic who was doing a lot of the mushroom experiments with him, and basically he left the lab because he couldn't take it, he was getting sick. So it was definitely pushing boundaries. Not to cut you off, but I've heard that from some of the remote viewers, the Stargate remote viewers, like they wouldn't just sit there and remote-view for eight hours a day. They would do one or two sessions and that would be it, and then they would need time to recalibrate, because you need to be in such a, have you ever experimented with remote viewing? No, I probably should at this point. I haven't done it a lot, I've only done it once or twice, but it's like you need to be very not just focused, but you need to be in this weird mental state where you're not allowing your conscious mind to apply any kind of overlay to the information you're getting. So everybody kind of has, even though there's a very specific controlled remote-viewing protocol that they were all doing, particularly by the time it was the army, the Fort Meade guys, they still all had their own way of entering that space and maintaining that space. And sometimes there would be other psychical effects. Lyn Buchanan told me that he was particularly good at getting into the minds of people, so he tells me that he allegedly would be told what is Saddam Hussein doing, what is Saddam Hussein thinking. So he'd have to go into this crazy, murderous person's mind, and it would take a giant toll on him. So I think there's things that go on in these weird psychical liminal spaces that we can't even really imagine, especially with mushrooms I'd imagine. Because this one psychic basically said there was only a certain amount he could do a week and he had to rest and his wife was worried about him. And it's strange too because at that time, this still would have been the 50s, and there's a lot of journal entries that we have of Puharich, he kept a crazy amount of journals throughout his whole life, but at that point he makes a bunch of mentions of saying this psychic is on a payroll and has to produce a certain amount of experiments a week, and he's kind of writing how he's angry because this guy couldn't handle it so he couldn't do the amount that needed to be done. We're going in a roughly chronological order, even though we're jumping around. At some point he gets pulled directly into the army in like the mid-50s, right? Is it like 53 he gets pulled into the army and then he goes to Edgewood Arsenal, which is also a chemical center, where they were making a lot, presumably, of chemical distillations of psychoactive molecules and stuff like that. What is he doing at that time? Well, it's interesting, and unfortunately I don't know, because the one kind of black period, which I guess is sort of telling, was that time. But what we do know is that he got called back into the army as a medical doctor, as a captain in the medical corps or something like that. And this is all proven, we have all of his papers. But it's telling, because of all the places that he gets sent to, it's Edgewood, which is the Army Chemical Center, where yeah, they're doing all of that stuff. And he basically cuts off his journals and his writings exactly at that point, which is strange. But he claims in lectures that he was basically a medical doctor and he would treat soldiers and this sort of thing. But it's very odd, and I've done enough now where I can just tell that he's kind of saying that story. It's pretty obvious that's not what he was doing there. And he's made a couple hints over the years in lectures like, I know why I was really brought there, but he doesn't expand on it. But no, it's true that he got called back in an official capacity and was working at the chemical center. But when he was let go, this is something that was a revelation for me, because I found this document that basically states that he was leaving the army but would continue to be a civilian consultant. And it's pretty obvious what that means, but I was still like, okay, what does that mean, I don't know army specifics and lingo, but it basically means that he's still under their watch essentially and still performing certain things for them in a civilian capacity. And that's very telling because of what he would go on to do after that point. That was a big shock to me, because I always just thought he wanted to leave that environment, which he did, I think in a way he was sort of forced to do this civilian consultant thing, because he writes a lot about how he was sick of the bureaucracy and he really didn't like being in the army and the orders. But it's clear as day, there's this document that's like, he's going to be discharged, he's going to be a civilian consultant. So where and when that led to, I don't know. But another overlap that's occurring to me that I didn't name outright, I wanted to bounce this off you, because this could potentially be a modern manifestation of things that Puharich may have ignited. Did you pay attention at all to when that Jake Barber guy came forward and started talking about psionic assets and stuff like that? That's so interesting in this context, because what he's saying is that there are these psychically gifted or psychically trained people that are highly intuitive that are able to somehow psychically connect to these other intelligences in a way that sometimes produces craft to show up or lights to show up. And then from there, the idea is that as crazy as it sounds, they would down some of these craft for reverse-engineering purposes. But it does seem like there's a decent enough trail to at least believe that possibly these psionic assets could be real. And that essentially what that means is you have these trained people who are not only psychic, but they're seemingly interacting with some kind of technology to enhance their psychic ability. And also the other rumor is that they seem to be enhanced through drugs. So you literally have all the things Puharich was experimenting with: the psychical stuff, the chemical stuff, the technological stuff. And maybe that's a manifestation of how all of these things matured, coming together in these super-deep dark programs up until this day, or at least as part of this mysterious legacy program that people are talking about in UFO spheres now. So is that something you attempted to connect the dots on at all? Yeah. A really interesting story that is related is that back in the 50s at the Round Table Foundation, I mentioned earlier this guy Peter Hurkos, one of these really gifted psychic guys, he was there at the Round Table, and this one night, and this is all from a journal entry, Puharich kept meticulous journals, we're talking hundreds, all handwritten dating back to the 50s. So this is a story that comes directly from a journal. He basically says this guy Hurkos, this one night he woke up, and keep in mind this guy had no interest in UFOs, it wasn't something in his life at all. And he said that Hurkos woke up one night and was called to go outside, and keep in mind they lived right on the coast in Maine, beautiful rocks and the ocean. So he goes outside and he sees this orb. And so he runs in, Peter Hurkos runs in the house, wakes up his wife, his daughters, he had two daughters, and Puharich, and he's like, you have to come outside, come, and they go out, of course it's not there. So he's like, I swear I saw this orb. And Puharich is kind of like, I don't know what to think about this. So then Puharich is like, well, that's really interesting, so if this happens again, why don't you let me know and maybe I'll see it this time. So sure enough, I can't remember, a couple days or a week later, this happens again. This guy Hurkos, keep in mind this was all at the time they're doing the ESP, the mushrooms, everything, he has this. Which for some people might lower their conviction on it, but for me it kind of raises it up. Exactly. So once again, this is at nighttime, I doubt he's still under the influence of whatever was going on, but he gets this message again to go outside, and this time he remembered, okay, I'm going to wake up Puharich first. So he wakes up Puharich, they go outside and they see this orb again, and it's floating there and it shoots off. Do they describe it, like colors or size? Yeah, well, I thought it was interesting that they were even saying orb, I guess that's kind of a common term, but that's what he was calling it in 53. This is probably more like 55. But they said just the classic off in the distance over the water, bright yellow circular orb, and then it slowly went off. And that's, because again, with Puharich there's really no mention of any interest in UFO/ET stuff at all, but around that time, there was the whole channeling thing happening but that wasn't really related to craft or anything. But after that incident, he writes that's what got him more interested in the UFO subject. So again, this is coming from his journal. Is it true? It's impossible to really say, but that was an interesting story that connects to the psionic thing. But to get more into it, I think it's pretty obvious stuff he did is very connected to this. And the biggest thing, we were talking earlier, this episode of our mutual friend Jesse Michels, on Dan Sherman. Yes, that episode blew my mind, people can watch that. But basically, shifting out of the Round Table Foundation was again a murky time where there's not a lot of information or writings. It's really weird, like during that time there's a lot of photographs, and going into the 60s there's very little photographs or really anything, all of a sudden it picks back up again in the mid-60s. But during that time is when he moved to Ossining, New York, which is where he would live for many years. He actually moved there in 1960. He moved there right from the Round Table in Maine to Ossining, New York, which is a town on the Hudson River north of New York City. And the reason he moved there is because, this is sort of a mutual discovery by Annie Jacobson and myself, because she had discovered this in her book, but I don't think she had found some of the stuff that was in our archives. She writes about how Round Table Foundation closes, he's looking for his next gig, but he gets a contract from the Atomic Energy Commission of all places, because they're interested in him, interested in what he's doing, and they basically move him out to Ossining and he's able to buy this huge house there. At the time it would have been a massive contract. And even his kids at this time were unfamiliar with the work that was going on or why they were moving there. But he was doing a lot of experiments with sound, and he had moved into this area where he had invented this device, and the beginnings of this are very murky. I don't really know how A led to B. Did he have an early interest in electrical engineering and radio stuff? This was even right around the Round Table beginnings. He was doing a lot of research with nervous systems, sound, things of this nature. He worked with a guy named Warren McCulloch, do you recognize that name? He's known as the creator of cybernetics. He was this kind of wild Einstein-type figure who was also at Northwestern, and they would do all sorts of crazy experiments at the Round Table Foundation together with sound waves and things like this. But that's a whole other thing to get into. Basically, I don't know what led to this period where he moves to Ossining, but what we do know is he was partnered with a dentist that he had met in the army. They had created this device that was called the TD-100, which stood for Transdermal 100, and basically they figured out a way to, they would test this on deaf subjects, people who were nerve-deaf, and they figured out a way to train these individuals. They would put this sort of headset on them and it would produce a certain tone, and they would be able to hear it, the tone would somehow bypass the ear and go through the facial nerves and wind up in their head basically. And they were able to hear tones, which then turned into words, which then turned into full sentences, and all of a sudden they could hear basically. He and this dentist created this device, and it was a big deal. There's a New York Times piece on it when it came out in 1961, his picture's in it. But like usual with Puharich, all of a sudden it just never talks about this thing, it never comes up, he's on to the next thing. It's totally gone black in a sense. But this TD machine turns up many times in his life after this period. He basically just invents this thing which is like a medical-genius invention, you'd think this could change the medical world, and all of a sudden it's just a nothing thing and he's moved on to the next. But he's still using this device pretty much his whole life, up until the 90s he's using this thing. Do you think he figured out that this could potentially be a way to enhance other abilities? Not just the ability for deaf people to hear, but to get extra-corporeal information? Well, I think, because we're going to come back to the Dan Sherman thing, this kind of all leads into that. But yeah, continue. What he did prove is basically the other part of this. The machine was called the TD-100, but there's all these offshoot inventions that were connected to it. And the other thing that they did was the tooth radio. They had a filling that would go on your tooth that had a radio receiver in it. And if you sent a certain frequency, the tooth could pick it up, which in effect would send what you're hearing through the facial nerves. So it's all these offshoots of this idea that sound can be sent into a person and be picked up through facial nerves and not the normal way that we receive sound in the ear. Imagine the potential applications for that, being able to pass information in ways that there's no way people would detect or think to look for. And there are examples of Geller actually where he supposedly did psychical feats in front of people, and some people were skeptical and others were not, and they would search him, make sure he doesn't have anything on him. Well, what if he had a filling that was transmitting information? There's so many possibilities. No, you said it, because that to me is probably the reason why this thing went black. And it truly did, it's so strange because this is a pretty huge thing to have discovered and invented, and it's in the New York Times, and nobody talks about it. It's the strangest thing. I interviewed this guy who was around Puharich a lot at that time, and even into the 70s, and I know for a fact that he was around this machine, had used it, had at least been in a room when it was being used, and I know this because there's a picture of him. And I asked him about it and he was just like, no, I don't, I don't know that thing, I don't recall. He just denied it. So there's a reason that people aren't wanting to talk about this machine. So I think, yeah, I think he discovered a lot more that this could do, maybe almost stumbled into a lot more that this thing could do. And that may have been the reason why it just went totally dark, because for medical reasons, that's amazing. Somebody's deaf, they're unable to hear, all of a sudden, and he describes how it works, you put it on, they're sort of headphones but they don't actually go on your ear, they go right here on your skin next to your ear because there's some nerve bone here. But if you put it on, kind of not so different than the Monroe tapes, for a certain amount of time every day for a month or something, it kind of trains your nerves in such a way where you now don't need the device anymore because it recalibrated this whole situation. So that's a huge medical discovery. But again, imagine what could be done with this thing. That is a legit psionic device. If you can reprogram parts of your anatomy or neurology to function in a new way through technology and gain the ability to sense extra-corporeal information or receive information, that's wild. You know what's crazy about this, I've never really said this, is that we found these old documents at the time that he had a company called Intelectron, which is a really cool name for a company, but that was where he was inventing all this stuff, the TD-100, the tooth thing, and other things. We found this old brochure that was outlining the different things they were working on at the time, and in there, because the TD-100 device is very big, it's probably the size of your average microwave, maybe even a little bigger, pretty big, and it has an output, it has the headphones, but in that brochure there's a briefcase-size one, and it's basically like, this can now be portable. And it's straight out of James Bond. It literally looks like a normal briefcase, you open it up and it's a miniature version of this big TD-100 device. And so there's this image of Puharich and Geller, and this is in the early 70s. Now keep in mind he creates this TD-100 device in the early 60s, I think it was 62, 63. So this was a decade before he even gets involved with Uri Geller. So it goes to show this thing's being used and how much it may have worked. And there's this image of him and Geller walking down the street in some major city, it could be London, I'm not sure, but Puharich is carrying that briefcase. And the second I put all those pieces together, I'm like, oh, that's what that is, he's carrying that. So that opens up a whole can of worms of, okay, well now let's go back and reinvestigate all this stuff he did with Geller, which is a whole thing. Yeah. Because if that whole thing, and I guess I've got to be careful because it seems like Geller likes to mercilessly go after people, and I'm not saying what is or isn't true, but let's just speculate, like if a lot of what he was doing was some level of psyop, because he was so massive. It was like Beatlemania, the level of his celebrity was so massive. The stories, I actually thought it was really interesting how diplomatic Annie Jacobson was in Phenomena, because she really gave him a fair shake and kept the idea that he may have some serious psychic abilities open, because there were all kinds of seemingly miraculous things that did really seem to happen, like the radio broadcasts where it seemed like all these other people had semi-miraculous things happen, like spoons bent and watches stopped and all this stuff supposedly happened when he told people to focus in really hard at the same moment, on this BBC radio broadcast, and things broke, watches started and stopped. But let's just pretend all of that was a psyop and all of his public appearances were something like this where he was being fed information through a briefcase. Like, what would the reason, what would a very public psyop like that, what would be the goal do you think? Well, I wouldn't so much say it's a psyop. I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying hypothetically. Well, I think it was more, my theory, first of all, I should preface with, we interviewed Geller in the film, super-cool guy, very interesting guy. He bent a spoon for us and I don't know how he did it. So that's all I can really say. It could have been fake, in person? In person, yeah, cool. He did the classic thing where he rubs it and it starts to bend up. So he did that, it was very cool, I don't know how. You know what's very impressive to me, have you seen the footage of the key? Where he has like a standard house key and he's not applying pressure to it, he's just rubbing it, and then he puts it down on a table and then it just slowly continues to bend. [Clip:] "After a few moments of concentrating on the audience, Geller took his hand away from Jimmy Young's key. Live on national radio, Jimmy Young shouted, 'It's bending right in front of me, I can't believe it.' There was clapping and cheering throughout the studio." [Geller:] "In an hour or two it'll be more bent. That's the point, that when nobody touches it, I'm gone." It's like, how is that possible? There's a bunch of footage of that stuff from when he first came from Israel to Ossining and Puharich was filming all these early tests on Super 8 cameras. But I think it's more so that, this is a whole other thing to get into, but I suspect it could have been more of a spy-type operation, in the sense that if you think Puharich may have been working for the Israelis, which there's quite a bit of evidence that points to that being truthful, I think it was more like, we have these really advanced, again, James Bond-esque things that we need to test in the field, and we need someone willing to do that, and they seemed like the perfect combination of people who could go out and do that. And this isn't my theory, a lot of people say this, all of that stuff was a psyop, a front, or just like, the TV appearances, the mania, that was just distraction. I'm going to go bend a spoon for the prime minister of this country, and so you're getting in that room because you're going to perform, you're going to do this trick, but you're in that room and you're with that person, you're with the president of this country. But on the other hand, you could do that for some guy on the street, right? And see, okay, does it work? But instead of a guy on the street, they did it on like the largest platforms in the world. And that's why I brought up the idea of a psyop, because even greater than whatever that individual act being done is, is the psychical splash that occurs. It's like millions of people are now talking about this, millions of people now think this is real, some people think it's fake, so you're starting this whole weird discourse, and I don't feel like that's an accident. I feel like that had to be done for a reason. Well, to that point, no, that's a good point. I for sure think that could have been, because Geller's at SRI at this point, right? Yeah. And I'm unclear, tell me what you think about his involvement there too, because it seems like some people really, I've heard some of the remote viewers really downplay, like, no, Uri was never in there, he was never a real remote viewer, he wouldn't do all the really strict protocols, there would always be some excuse. But then there's other people who were like, no, he's real. Eric, I don't think you would care if I say this, but Eric Davis, the physicist who's been involved in classified projects, AAWSAP and stuff, he said he has a bag of bent spoons from Uri Geller, and he's convinced, he's like, no, you got to see the way these things are bent, it's impossible. Well, it is strange, because one of the space kids actually has a fork that they apparently bent, and again it's totally up in the air for me whether this is, but it's just strange because the ends of the fork are wrapped up like a coil. And I totally get if you're standing there and as hard as you possibly can you can bend a spoon, but to do that, it's very strange to me. I've tried to do it. It's pretty much impossible to do it by yourself, unless you're doing it on a machine somewhere. But Geller was certainly there, for sure there's video, there's footage of him there. But what I know, and a lot of people dispute this for whatever reason, and again I'm not trying to talk up Puharich here because I made this film, it's just like the facts, like the MK-ULTRA thing, like Annie Jacobson's been saying, he was there first. Even at the SRI program, the whole reason that started is because Puharich went to Israel, brought Geller back on behalf of the CIA. There's a bunch of murkiness there about who exactly sent him, but even Geller admits he was sent there by the CIA to check him out, bring me back. He brings him back to SRI and then the program happens, and he was there from the very beginning, he's the one who brought Geller there. There's some people who say, oh, Puharich was never there, we never even saw him there. It's just a fact that he was the first guy to show up with him, and then these other guys started to come in, Swann and so forth. But I don't know about remote viewing, I never saw anything that would indicate that Geller was doing remote-viewing stuff. It was more just the tests that everyone seems to know about, the bending and trying to make the compass needle move, and things like that. He did some predictive things like a hidden target inside of an envelope, that kind of remote viewing, but I don't know if he ever remote-viewed targets in the way that they did. Just to answer the psyop thing, I've often thought as well, like, the United States is now saying, look at this incredible super-soldier psychic that we have, and check this out. It could be a deterrent maybe. Good luck finding someone like this, we have them, and now all of a sudden you've got these other countries saying, hey, we need a guy like this. So that could make sense to me. But the Geller thing, it's just strange, I truly don't know after all these years what was really going on. I can suspect things. It's just very mysterious, and I think for a good reason. I think they were involved in some serious stuff back then. There's a reason why we don't know a lot about this stuff besides what's out there. There's that chapter in Phenomena where she talks about the quote-unquote Geller effect, where apparently he would be brought around to these different labs and things would break. One thing in particular is he supposedly went to Lawrence Livermore Labs, do you know this whole story, and then all this weird poltergeist activity started happening. Scientists who had Q clearance, which means they're very mentally stable, very trustworthy, very dependable, started having very weird stuff happen to them in the middle of the night. Like one person had an orb appear. That's right. One person had like a rotating hologram of an arm appear in their bedroom. I want to say one person had like a crow appear. Just really weird stuff that allegedly led to scientists even quitting these projects. So there's that kind of stuff where, again, what's the source for this? I don't know. I think Kit Green might have been involved in that. I think so. We're jumping around introducing a lot of things, but it's too interesting not to mention. Yeah, I've heard that story. I've also heard a theory, you know that guy Getting Spooked, he's got a Substack, he's pretty cool, does a lot of good research into this stuff, but he's suggesting that Geller was involved in a lot of this directed-energy stuff, and that all of the remote-viewing stuff was basically a cover for research into early directed-energy weapons. I think that's kind of a stretch, but this idea that maybe the things people are seeing and the craziness and the poltergeist activity is more caused by experimenting with that and not so much genuine paranormal. So almost like Stranger Things style, like opening portals and making such weird stuff happen by interfering with the electromagnetic spectrum, that maybe you're almost causing the poltergeist activity. And that's actually interesting when you think about the theories of someone like John Keel, because his whole idea of the ultraterrestrial hypothesis is the idea of the super-spectrum, that whatever these entities are that we see manifest as UFOs or cryptids or poltergeist activity, ghosts and stuff, is really momentary manifestations in what he called window areas or window periods of time where this super-spectrum would manifest itself and all this weird stuff would start happening. And you could also as another example of that potentially flag nuclear stuff, right, because we know that nuclear things clearly seem to attract UFOs and strange things. And clearly that's having, you do a nuclear explosion and it has all kinds of crazy effects on the fabric of reality essentially. So who knows, man. I've had this theory for a while now that Geller was in a way like a guinea pig of sorts for some of these very far-out ideas, or like, is this possible? I can't prove that, but it just seems to make sense. Given Puharich's background, given he's welcomed with open arms in Israel meeting all these generals, intelligence people, the connection Geller has, and he comes back, it kind of adds up to me. But again, there's not a lot known, so maybe that's for a reason. They were certainly up to something, that's for sure. They had a pretty weird falling out later on in the 70s. The other big chapter of this is, you talk a lot about the Nine in the documentary, this mysterious group of disembodied higher intelligences or alien intelligences, that are feeding information through a number of different channels. But then there's also this whole Spectra thing between Geller and Puharich, where essentially at one point Geller claims that the source of his abilities are this thing, this Spectra intelligence. I can't recall if you talk much about that in the documentary or not. Well, we talk about the book. So in 74, Puharich wrote a book that was extremely controversial because he's talking about how he met Uri Geller, how he brought him back from Israel to the United States, how he sets him up at SRI, talking about all that. But then out of nowhere, just like Vinod, Dr. Vinod at the Round Table, the book gets into, this one day I hypnotize him and all of a sudden he starts channeling, and oh my God, it's the Nine again. I hadn't made contact with them in decades since the 50s, and all of a sudden through Geller I'm communicating with them again. So the whole book is this crazy story about these things that happened between them and how they were communicating with the Nine. There's all sorts of crazy stories in it, like Geller teleported, have you heard this? He apparently teleported from New York City, I think to Puharich's house, and came crashing in the window. And there's film footage of them filming the window where he crashed through. So it's like, it either happened or he literally wasted money by smashing his screen-door window to prove this. So all these bizarre events happened, that are in this book, which led pretty much everyone to think he was just totally a quack. That book, he says even crazier stuff too, about how they were in Israel and they saw craft land, and Geller was able to communicate. It literally reads like a science-fiction book. But Puharich is saying the opposite, he's saying these events really happened, and that was sort of the break between the two of them as well, because Geller was famous at that point, was making a career, was on TV, and now all of a sudden there's this crazy book saying stuff like this, and he wanted to distance himself from that. Which he did. I remember that part of the documentary where it seemed like Puharich really wanted him to be cloistered in his lab and be seriously doing these psychical experiments, and Geller wanted to go out there and just be a rock star basically, because he was highly sought-after and ready to go out there and do his thing. The Spectra thing question, so in the book it gets into how Spectra is, and again this is like science fiction completely, basically was this computer that has been floating out in space for an unknown amount of time, and that somehow Geller was communicating with this computer, which is essentially like AI in a sense now, but back then. And that was the means through which he was communicating. But Spectra was also like a lower rung from the Nine, and the Nine were still controlling this, but Spectra. Oh, so there was a relationship between the two of them. It's totally far-out, you can understand why people thought he was off his rocker writing this book claiming this was true. But Spectra was basically this computer in space that was communicating with Geller, but was still connected to the Nine. And the Nine were basically like, since people don't believe in us and people don't believe in the powers, we're going to demonstrate to the world through Uri Geller that this stuff is real. So everything he's doing is all done through us really, and that's going to make people believe in this. Wow, it's pretty far-out. It really makes you question why did he write this book, because this is a part of his life where he was still very involved with lots of highly scientific things, and he just writes this book claiming this stuff to be real. So I've questioned that a lot, I've questioned, was he told to do this so people would read it and just think that he was nuts so he could kind of still operate and do things for certain agencies while pretty much everyone just thinks he's crazy. I don't think that's too far-fetched. I read something about how the KGB would do that a lot, they would have scientists write these crazy articles and papers just so the public perception of them was like, oh, I don't trust this guy, he's clearly way too far-out, but meanwhile they're still working behind the scenes. So I've thought that about that book, because it really does make you think, that could ruin your career, your reputation, but he's fully backing this book at the time. This just occurred to me, even though we're away from the TD-100 stuff, his invention that seemed to just fall off the face of the earth yet be super-profound. Didn't you and Adam try to experiment with it? What happened? Our friend Adam Curry, who's been on the show a couple times. How did you get your hands on one? Yeah, so basically what happened was, there's a guy named Tom Valone, you know him? He's really involved in Tesla research and stuff. He lives outside of Washington DC, but he's a really cool guy and he knew Puharich really well in the 80s and 90s, they were really good friends. So when Puharich passed away, a lot of his stuff was given to people, and from what I was told, there were only a few of the TD-100 devices left in his lab, and Tom Valone got one. And then these other two or three people who I was never able to communicate with, but Tom Valone was able to get one, and he brought it back to his lab outside of Washington DC and has had it all these years. And I wasn't even aware of this until a handful of years ago. It somehow came to my attention that he had one and I was like, okay, I didn't know these existed. So the original idea was just to use it as a prop in some of the recreation stuff we did, which was really cool, because it's like, here's the actual thing. And I thought, we're never going to use this, I was scared to do anything with it. But basically what happened was we got it from Tom Valone, he let us use it in the film, but Adam Curry started to get this idea, well, what if we tried to use this? That would be amazing, that could be part of the film, or just the idea of trying to get this thing to work all of a sudden popped up. So Adam was the first person I thought of because clearly he seems to be someone who might figure this out. So we worked it out where, I traveled there with this thing in checked luggage. I went and bought the biggest possible piece of luggage you can and wrapped this thing in tons of bubble wrap and checked it in, and we flew, and we went to his lab with it. And basically it's kind of an underwhelming story, because what happened was, he brought it in his lab, he basically got it to turn on, he was able to determine that it was functioning, it could turn on, he was able to see, there's like an oscilloscope or something. He had an oscilloscope he was using that he somehow connected, which proved that this thing was functioning. But long story short, he basically was like, the components of this are so old, and the electronics are so old, that I don't want to be the one to potentially mess this thing up for good. I'm pretty sure we can get this working, I'm pretty sure I know how to generally get this operating, but I don't want to risk it. So basically nothing really happened. It was really cool to go there and do that with him, but it's such a relic, I think everyone was just like, let's not go there. It would be interesting, I would have to imagine there's got to be some electrical engineers out there who have tried to recreate it, or are there schematics for it out there anywhere? No, I mean, we have them. Whoa. But I think maybe this is going to be an open call, I still want to do that, this guy Tom who has it, he wants to do it. I think it really is just a matter of finding the person who's willing to do it, and maybe the funding that some person might need to go about this. But it should happen, because if this thing does what Puharich and others have claimed, that's pretty, that maybe it shouldn't happen, I don't know. Does that freak you out putting that out there? On this note, we were saying before, you're sitting on not only this but a lot of documents, a lot of recordings with a lot of crazy stuff in them, and does any of that stuff give you pause, or do you worry, like, I don't know if I should know this, I don't know if I should have this, do you think you're sitting on classified stuff? Well, first of all the machine, I don't have that anymore, not just saying. But the thing I've thought of over the years is there's information out there that one can find that points to what is possible here and what this machine can do. There's stuff out there. I've never thought like, I'm actually sitting on something that's truly dangerous, or I shouldn't have. But at the same time, it does feel weird, because I just think, again, the nature of this device, how it went totally black, that does feel weird, because it's like, well, why don't other people know about this, and how did I of all people, this unscientific filmmaker person, why do I have this? So I've thought of that. But some of the stuff, the recordings, some of the recordings are definitely intelligence remote-viewing operations for sure. And again, it was so long ago, I do feel like, why would anyone care? But there is that feeling of like, it's kind of spooky to have them. And could these tapes have information on them, or could they help present-day research? So it basically feels weird. I don't feel like, because again this information has been out there, I think there's definitely ways and means to find it out. So I don't truly think there's some groundbreaking thing. But you're not the termination point, this is information that's out there, you just happen to have a large aggregate of it. Yeah. But again, some of the tapes, who, so long ago, why would somebody care now about an intelligence operation that happened in 1974? But still, it's definitely serious stuff. Well, like what kind of stuff are you talking about, and if there's details you feel like you shouldn't say, then. No, I can say, but the one note on the TD-100 I was going to say is, what I think is dangerous, and I'm not doing this, so I don't really feel any danger, but if somebody were to get it operational in the sense that it was doing what they claimed it was doing, I would think that there are people out there who would be very interested in that and wanting that back and not wanting some random person to have it. I could see that, because apparently what it did was not only mind-control stuff, but also a sort of connection to nonhuman intelligence. And now I'm remembering, we never tied this back into the Dan Sherman thing. So if I was sitting in my basement and figured out how to work it and I was the only one doing that, then yeah, I would feel a lot differently. But I'm not doing that. But somebody should definitely get it working is the point. The tapes. Basically, what I discovered is that there's hundreds of these cassette tapes that Puharich recorded of these channeling sessions that he would do with the Nine and the space kids. And so those were all left behind and we got them all for the film. But a lot of them had never been listened to. So we went through this process of digitizing all of them, which took forever. But once we finally had them in an MP3 format is when I started listening to all of them. And I very quickly discovered that there were a lot of tapes that felt like your classic remote viewing of, we're going to go look at, or essentially we're going to go spy on this place, this person, what information are you getting, can you feed that back. I can say some specifics, but the point is these were labeled as channeling tapes with the Nine. And so that's when I started to ask myself, well, what interest would the Nine have in this type of stuff? It just doesn't make sense. Why on earth, if you were having this groundbreaking communication where you're channeling this entity, why would you be asking about the Kremlin, what time is this person going to be at the Kremlin? So that was the point where I said, okay, this is strange. This seems like this remote-viewing stuff I've heard so much about. There's so much out there about the remote-viewing stuff, but it's just people talking about it, or somebody like, I was in the program, this is what I did, but you never hear the actual recording, or the tapes. So I was like, wow, this is probably what was going on. It was very early, it was like 72, 73, 74. So that was interesting to find. And there was a lot of what you would just call spying really. There was a lot of stuff going on in the Middle East war, and this is space kids who are doing this mostly, and we should get into that too eventually. So basically, a lot of them were during the Middle East war, this would have been mid-70s, and there was a lot of remote viewing. Which war would this be? Middle East war, that's what it was called. Yeah, that's what they called it. I guess I'm not a student of history. It was like 73, 74, they called it the Yom Kippur War. Oh yeah, okay. So happening in the Middle East, Israel, Egypt, and this points back to the relationship Puharich had with the Israelis, because he seemed very interested in what was going on with them and specifically in Israel at that time. And of course we were allies then, so there could be some sort of double-agent thing happening. But basically a lot of the tapes were like, we're hearing that there's, you know, the PLO, they call it, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, were fighting against the Israelis at the time, and they were going into Israel, other countries, they were doing a lot of terrorist attacks, bombings, there's a famous one in 74 that happened in London, I believe. So a lot of the tapes were like, okay, what code words are the PLO using, so we can report this back and know what they're saying, what time is such-and-such PLO representative going to be at this meeting so we can have somebody there. This is on these tapes. And was there ever any feedback as to whether or not they were successful? Well, no, and this is what's interesting, because we interviewed this guy whose name I won't say at the moment, but he worked very closely with Puharich at this exact time, and I asked him literally exactly what you just asked me, and he's like, you know, Greg, I can't tell you, all I know is these tapes were going to somebody, all I know is these were definitely being done under pretty serious circumstances. And that's what I know, because I said the same thing, where did they go, did they work, was there feedback? And he was just like, they went to somebody for sure. And the gist was, this was not something he was doing kicking around in his free time for fun. Well, this right here lends credence to the practice of remote viewing and the fact that it was taken seriously, right? Because if it really was all a front, he wouldn't be saying that, right? Exactly. And that leads to the Nine stuff too, that I said earlier, where I'm like, what interest would an alien intelligence have in the name of the leader of a terrorist organization? It just doesn't make sense. So when I started hearing this stuff, going back to that idea of being a little spooked by it, but also just, okay, he's clearly doing some sort of operational remote-viewing thing. I think what he was doing, because this was very early, this was right before, if not exactly when the SRI stuff was happening, the very beginning of Project Stargate, which in and of itself is interesting, because if people are interested in remote viewing, the typical narrative is like, oh, Project Stargate starts in the early 70s at SRI, and this is how Puthoff and Russell Targ and Ingo Swann and Pat Price and people like this, and then that continues for a while and then it goes over to Fort Meade and blah blah blah. But this part of the story is not really something that's usually talked about, before that. And I'm not trying to put this guy on a pedestal here, but I think he started this whole idea, he started this protocol, and that's what ultimately led to the SRI programs through Stargate and everything, because some of these tapes are absolutely before Stargate started. It's a fact. And I think that what he was doing, and I've heard this, I can't prove it, but it goes back to this idea of young people again, like there's this idea that a younger person's abilities are better. And if you're going to try to test a younger person, that's very difficult to bring them into a place like SRI, you've got to go to their parents, hey, can we do these bizarre tests on them? So the way you do it is kind of like what Puharich was doing, this sort of big house, open environment, very laid-back, calm, we're trying to communicate here, we're trying to make contact, ETs, a lot of UFO talk, and bringing people into that environment so they're comfortable, and then you can do the experiments you want to do and you can report back. And again, this is just what I've heard, I have no proof of this, but his lab was like a CIA cutout, where basically he was the one saying, hey, we want to check if this is easier or better with young people, so you do that there, and meanwhile SRI, we're going to be doing this stuff with Pat Price and these other people. So it makes sense to me that he was doing that and maybe those tapes are going there, I don't know. But all I know is it was the exact same year or the year before Stargate, and there's just many reasons to believe and many puzzle pieces that fit that that's probably what was happening. You said you do have at least one document showing that SRI was paying him? Yeah, so the one thing we do have that is pretty undeniable proof, it was in his archives, it was some sort of tax-related document that basically was from Stanford Research Institute to Lab 9, which was his lab at the time, and they were paying him, I can't remember exactly, but at least $10,000 or more in 1973. Stargate technically started in 74 I believe. So that document is in there. We asked Hal Puthoff about that. Oh really? Because he's in the film, we interviewed him, and he basically just sort of, next question kind of thing. He was really cool, he knew Puharich well, he thinks he's very intelligent, a little far-out, but he had a lot of nice things to say about him. But he basically was like, I have no idea what that would have been. So interesting, but it exists as theirs. And it's weird because to us these organizations seem like, oh yeah, they were doing Stargate, but who knows what else they were doing, who knows who else was working there, this idea that these psychic-spy programs and investigating all of this more out-there stuff, it really may not have been contained, anything close to the programs we know about. There could have been a whole other division within SRI doing other similar things. Well, there's footage of Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ at Lab 9 in Ossining during these exact years. There's literally footage of them there, they're sitting on the front steps, they're in the house. They were there for sure. So somebody very reliable was like, yeah, the whole Lab 9 thing was just like a cutout for those programs, because they could more easily work with young people there than they could in a more serious environment. I can't prove it, but they were definitely doing a lot of that type of remote viewing in the Middle East at that time. It was a lot of, there's a guy named, it'll come to me, he's a famous Israeli general, he always wears an eye patch, Moshe Dayan is his name. You can look him up, he's bald, he wears an eye patch. And he was, I think, the head of Israeli intelligence in the 70s at this time, but there's literally tapes where they're like, should we tell this to him, should we report this to him, where will he be at this time, can this be reported to him? Again, what else can that be? And the fact that you're doing this so often, asking these kinds of very specific questions about where people are, very serious information that is either right or wrong, if you're doing it over and over again, you must have a sense that it works. Well, to your point earlier, the individual who was there during a lot of this that we interviewed, I think it's compartmentalized in the sense where even though he was there and he was helping, he even said, I don't know where this went. They clearly went somewhere, because the operation, I was told at Lab 9, and this is kind of a weird side note, because at Lab 9 specifically during this time we're talking about, apparently the setup there, and there's no pictures of this, and it's the weirdest thing, because in his archives there's so many pictures of all the decades, everything, family stuff, but for some reason that exact couple years there's literally nothing. No photos. There's hundreds of Super 8 tapes, all this stuff, nothing from those years. And it's strange because what I was told is his setup there was this crazy intricate setup with early IBM computers and a huge Faraday cage and stuff that would have cost tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands, a crazy setup. So you think, okay, this guy somehow on his own is setting this up just to do research, and it doesn't add up. And then the fact that there's literally no visual evidence at all, it's really strange. And I've heard through two separate people who were there, they're like, yeah, you wouldn't believe this setup, it literally looks like it was in some sort of futuristic government facility or something, and it was in his house in Ossining. And what's weird too is some of the space kids who were there, they don't recall seeing it like that. So that brings up this whole other aspect. I think they were maybe in another vision of what was, because some of them were there for sure and they're like, I don't remember seeing that. So something very mysterious for sure was going on. Maybe that's like a secret study or secret lab somewhere else on the campus. Okay, so again, we've been promising to get back to the Dan Sherman thing. I'm just going to tie a bow around the Dan Sherman thing because it's an interesting aside as an example of how some of this stuff could have evolved or matured from the time of Puharich. For anybody who wants the full story, definitely watch the Jesse Michels episode. He has a book called Above Black, where essentially he's this LINT officer who's doing some kind of training, and as he's doing that training, he gets pulled into some other program where it's not clear what he's doing, but he's made to interface with this technology and see if he can be successful in using it. And it has to do with very similar concepts, there's tones involved. They make him take some kind of drug as well, he doesn't know what it is. And as he gets pulled deeper into the program he's made aware that he's meant to be communicating with something, and it ends up being some kind of higher NHI that he communicates with, and then he brings the information back. So again, it's a crazy story, but he is one of, everybody I know that has watched that interview comes away thinking this guy is unbelievably convincing and genuine-sounding. Like me, you, Jesse, I've privately talked to Jesse and we've been like, yeah, man, this guy, I really believe this guy. We totally agreed he's a very believable dude. So that's just one example. So now we should move on to the space kids chapter, because we've only got like 30 minutes left. It's going by so fast, man, it's so fascinating. Well, the one thing I want to say quickly is, first of all I want to apologize, because the TD-100 and all is very complex, and I'm not a physicist, I'm not assigned, so a lot of this stuff is hard for me to articulate and explain like exactly how it's working, but I think in the film it makes a lot of sense, because the editor I worked with is really brilliant and made it make sense. But the Dan Sherman thing, the big connection to me was again the tones. Because there's, we'll get into the space kids now, but one of the tapes is very specifically one of the space kids and they're in a hypnotic state, and basically Puharich is saying, okay, I don't know if there's some machine there or what it was, but he's saying, okay, now this tone is going to come at you and it's going to hit your head, hit your skull, and there's going to be information within that tone, and let me know when you hear it connect with you, and let me know if you can then decipher what information is in this tone. Then there's a pause and she goes, okay, I can hear it now and I think it's this letter, I think it's this word. Very bizarre to listen to. And so cut to, this was 75, 76, cut to the Sherman thing, and it's just like, that's exactly, if I recall correctly, some of the things he was describing doing. So when I heard that it was shocking, because it's like, wait, that's what he was doing on this tape decades before this. And there has to be a connection there. Again, it's a whole rabbit hole, but that was the thing that made me like, okay, there's a connection here for sure. This is really bizarre. Very bizarre, very interesting. But, space kids. Yeah, so we've mentioned them offhand a few times, but eventually he gets this group of young psychically sensitive people together, and you made the important point earlier that when you say space kids, it makes people think, gate program, was there abuse, is there mental trauma going on? And I think maybe in some cases there could be mental trauma, so I don't want to say it was completely benevolent where nothing negative occurred whatsoever. But this is actually adults, it's people ranged roughly 18 to early 20s, right? Yeah. So he gets this group of psychic kids together, or young adults together, then what happens? Yeah, so it basically started from Geller allegedly when he went on TV. You had mentioned the BBC one, I know that one, it was this show I think in 74 that he went on, the David Dimbleby show. Yeah. He did all this psychic stuff, he bent a spoon. But that was the weird thing that he did that was really shocking to me, if there was anything that Geller ever did, on that show he bent the hands of a watch, and it clearly was bent and they show it before and it wasn't bent. So that's weird. But anyways, apparently all these kids around the world, specifically for this story in the UK and the United States, after seeing that, for whatever reason something opened in them and they're like, wait a second, I think I can do this too. And they would all of a sudden go run and grab a spoon and they could bend it. And Puharich caught wind of this because he tells a story that all these parents were calling him, or were put in contact with him, and were like, you work with this guy Geller, but my kid can do this too, and you've got to come see them, you've got to come witness this. So that kicked him off to, okay, there's other Geller kids, that he called them originally, and maybe there's something to this. So he starts to gather a bunch of them after this television appearance by Geller. And it's kind of similar to the Round Table in the 50s in the sense that it's very unclear who was backing this at the time, but it's strange to think like, all these young people he somehow got to his lab in Ossining to basically say, let me start essentially this camp where all of them can gather and we can work together, we can do tests and try to figure out what's going on here. I believe at one point there were like 20-something kids there. And like I was telling you, he had some sort of process to vet which kids could handle this, because again there's stories about the Faraday cage, you hear these stories with people doing sensory deprivation where it's so intense you can't even do it. So a lot of times you would hear these kids, the Faraday cage is so silent that they couldn't even be in there. So he would go through the kids and collect the remaining 12, which he writes about, who apparently were very gifted psychically and could do things like Geller could do. And he then began to try to do what he did with Geller, in the sense where, let me see, because Geller, he claimed got these powers through the Nine, through an extraterrestrial intelligence, so he said if that's the case with Geller, then maybe this bigger phenomenon is that these kids are getting this power through some other intelligence. So let me hypnotize them and see if I can get any information like that. And so he did. And there's tons of sessions of him regressing in a sense these kids and seeing if there's some connection there to another civilization, and according to a lot of these recordings he did, these kids would remember a past life of being on another planet, being in another part of another civilization, remembering that they were born on Earth as a sort of hybrid type thing. Again, remember this is like early 70s, so this is not in the zeitgeist as much. And so that starts this crazy theory that Puharich begins to build, which is, okay, the reason kids, or people in general, have these abilities is because they're getting it through this connection to another civilization that they are from. Totally far-out. But he begins to write about this, and basically he starts doing a lot of the channeling sessions with the Nine with these kids, and like we were talking about earlier, they start to bring through all this really crazy information, advanced mathematical equations, stuff that, with all due respect to these kids, they would never fake that, I couldn't sit here and do that. I definitely couldn't. So they're bringing through this very advanced physics information, which according to the Nine that they're channeling is kind of like, here's how the world really works, here's how communication, here's how this is, this is what consciousness is all about, this is basically the textbook to understanding everything. Are there any of the broad strokes of those kinds of answers you remember? Well, basically it was a lot to do with the hypnotic state, and the fact that that is how, you hear a lot of these stories, the UFO encounters with the telepathic communication, the person receives, that's how they're hearing the entities talk. So there's a lot of stuff about that, where that's how this communication works, and if you're able to get to such a level in a hypnotic or trance state, that's how this communication works. And anyone can do it, but there has to be a very specific environment they're in, the Faraday cage and so forth. So there's a lot of talk about how to enhance that communication, a lot of talk about anyone can do this but people just don't believe they can, or aren't aware that they can do it, or they're not able to reach that state. But a lot of it is so complex that I think Puharich himself was even like, okay, I've got to sit down here and try to figure out what they're trying to say, and like we were talking, I feel that it's either complete BS or it's the answer to everything, and I don't think there's any in-between. And I think he just didn't have the time to figure that out, because we're talking pages and pages and tapes and hundreds of tapes of stuff like this where he felt as though he was receiving a whole rewriting of the world of physics and he was trying to figure that out. And in fact around the time of the space-kids camp he brought in all these specialists, mathematicians, social scientists, all these different people from different fields, to say, hey, let's get together, look at this information we're getting, and let's try to figure it out. But they weren't able to, and the only thing remaining are these binders that we have, that I was telling you about, that consist of a lot of the equations, a lot of the things they were getting, a lot of the notes, and it's so much, I can't get into it in the sense that, A, it's hard to talk about, and B, it's literally so much. Someone needs to upload all of this stuff to AI and figure out if there's anything coherent behind it. And if there is any kind of gestalt that we can reduce it all down to, man, if there is, how insane would that be? I know. And again, it's not a copout of not wanting to talk, it's just it's so much stuff, it would literally take, like he did, he got this team of people together, so I think that's maybe what it would take to dive back into that stuff, because it's years worth of material. But again, it was sort of that general new-age kind of talk, but it wasn't all that, it was very specific things about the nature of the universe, very specific about the hypnotic state and that's the way messages can be transferred at any length, so there were some specific things and a lot of equations and stuff, so it wasn't just mumbo-jumbo, which again we both agree is what makes it more interesting. Are there any particular anecdotes from the space-kids years of crazy stuff that happened, or particular individuals within those groups that are particularly noteworthy? Yeah, so we were able to track down several of these space kids, which obviously now are adults, and of those several, only four or five of them, no, four of them, were willing to talk, which was amazing because they were really hesitant to do it, and I honor them for doing this. Because a lot, like abductees, like people in contact, they were not in any way looking to be out there, and in a lot of ways they never talked about this, they were not jumping out of their seats to be in a documentary, they were very quiet. So I really honor them for doing it, I've become very close with all of them now. But there was one in particular, a woman named Sharon, and her last name changed a couple times over the years, but her last name was Sharon McCann and then Sharon Jacobson. And it was Sharon as in S-h-a-r-o-n. And I'm happy to be public about this now, because I've spent so many years trying to locate her that I just don't care, maybe this will help, someone will see this and they'll find her. But she was kind of like, I like to say, the Eleven of the group, Stranger Things, in the sense that everyone who was there who knew her all say she was like the most incredible psychic person I'd ever met, absolute real deal. And almost all the tapes, I'd say 85% of the tapes, are mostly with Sharon. And she's the one who again is bringing through really advanced information. And on most of the tapes you can clearly hear them at the end when they come to, you can hear it's like they're breathing heavy, they're coming back, they clearly don't remember what just took place. Some of these tapes are two hours long, so clearly they don't recall anything they're saying, but what they are saying is very articulate. And again, the way they talk when they're under during these trance sessions is very different from the way they would normally talk. So it all goes back to my theory that something definitely was going on there, I don't know exactly what. But she was extraordinary by everyone's account, and she was on all these tapes, and she traveled with Puharich all over the place, she kind of doubled as his assistant, she was always with him. And Puharich tells stories that he would bring her to conferences and lectures, he would give conferences at physics groups and things, and he would show them what she brought through, oftentimes he would do a live demonstration with her, and claims these people were shocked. Brian Josephson, I think he won a Nobel Prize, a physicist who's still alive, he wrote the foreword for one of Puharich's books in the late 70s, and now is kind of pretending he didn't know him, which, no offense to him, I don't know this guy, but that's the only interaction I had where he was like, I don't remember that guy, and I'm like, well, you wrote the foreword to his book, that's wild, that you can buy on eBay. But apparently that guy was like, I met this girl and she was extraordinary. So Puharich basically was like, I'm going to start a sort of, I don't know what you'd call it, a center, a retreat, an institute, where basically we're going to bring these channelers in, specifically this woman Sharon, and we're going to do this research and really put out there that this is real, and we're going to get academic funding, and this is going to be this big new movement that we're going to start where we're going to start bringing through knowledge and information from these other civilizations. And this woman Sharon was the main partner with him in this endeavor, and she just, yeah, never able to track her down, never able to find her. Everyone who knew her was like, yeah, it is weird, she kind of disappeared, and nobody had any recollection of what may have happened to her, where she went. I very extensively searched for her. I mean, really, just to talk, she spent so much time with him and was so important, all I wanted to do is just talk to her, what was it like? But for whatever reason, she's completely unfindable. It makes one think, did she get sucked into other intelligence efforts, other organizations, into less-visible programs? I don't know. It's quite possible, people have suggested that, but at the end of the day, to this day I've never been able to find her, kind of given up, but I suspect she's out there, and maybe when the film comes out she would come forward. It'd be really interesting to meet her, I feel like I know her from all this research. Our time is rapidly shortening. Is there anything on your mind that is particularly crazy or noteworthy that we haven't talked about yet? I can't think of it. I guess not to shamelessly plug, but to watch the film, because there's a lot of stuff in there that you can see and hear, we don't have to just talk about it. So for sure watch the film. Well, we haven't really talked about the identity of the Nine very much. That's one of those things where they almost seem to portray themselves less like aliens and more like godlike intelligences that are overseeing reality, right? And at one point they give a description of themselves that almost sounds like the Egyptian gods, like the nine Egyptian gods, which are almost like these archetypal universal forces. But then in other cases it sounds like they're orbiting on a ship or something. What is your opinion of what they are based on what you know? I think you pretty much said it. And there's been so many stories that just aren't true that have snowballed about, oh yeah, they're actually in an actual UFO, but from the very beginning, it was just like these overarching gods that oversaw everything, and they've been there since the beginning, and they aren't entities, they're not in ships, they're not traveling, they're just there. They're just intelligences that can be tapped into, they're not physical by any means. And the Egyptian connection is interesting, because on a lot of the channeling tapes, for whatever reason, Puharich and whoever he was doing the sessions with, with the space kids, they would have these nicknames they would use during the sessions that were all Egyptian, it was Ra, it was Horus, it was Sekhmet, these Egyptian god names that they would go by when they were in these trance sessions doing the channeling. So that's how they would refer to each other. I don't know if that was just something they did for fun or if there was a larger meaning to that, but they would often use those names. See, I like this a lot better for some reason. This flavor of the story is way more interesting to me than, we're like aliens in a ship. It is. And there's a crazy Egyptian connection as well, because on one of the tapes we have, Puharich brought one of the space kids into the Great Pyramid and they did a session inside the King's Chamber, and I believe, I can't prove it, but I believe they have the TD-100 device with them, which is a crazy image to think that they're in the King's Chamber with this thing. But on the tape you can hear these little weird mechanical sounds, so I'm like, is that the tape recorder or is that? But anyways, they do a session there. Puharich, it's a whole other thing to get into, but he was obsessed with ancient Egypt and the pyramids. So he was like, let's see if a certain connection can be made inside the pyramid. And if I recall, that tape is fairly, it's not too interesting, but I do think that he was like, we're going to try to communicate with one of the kids back in Ossining from the pyramid. So apparently they're trying to do that. But yeah, he had a fascination with Egypt as well. But the Nine are confusing because it's sort of, you can interpret it in a lot of different ways. And I think the original interpretation comes from the original session where they apparently came through Vinod at the Round Table Foundation, and that's where it all started. But since then there's been all sorts of other stories about, no it's this, no it's that. And some people believe it was all a psyop thing, so yeah, it could be. And the weird thing I'll say to cap it off is, why aren't people still talking about the Nine, it seemed to just stop. Well, into the 90s he would do these retreats where he would bring people out to sacred sites and they would do sessions and apparently communicate with the Nine. But even his son and other people were like, oh, at that point it was just like a fun thing to do. But after around that period, it was just like, okay, that's done, and just stopped. So I don't know, it does make you wonder, was there something else going on, or was it just something he was using to bring people to him? It just makes me think, if you were apparently able to connect with this all-knowing entity, why would you just stop doing that? Maybe it's like you need to find the right person, because he claims it was Vinod and Geller and only these certain people could make the connection. But it just seems like such an extraordinary thing to just be like, I'm bored of this now, I guess I'm not going to. Well, if there are other elements of the government or of classified stuff, who knows what's going on behind the closed doors of military-industrial-complex contractors. There's rumors about what happened after Project Stargate, where did all that stuff go, what happened with remote viewing, is there any truth behind these psionic programs, is there truth behind the Dan Sherman stuff? Maybe we found better, different ways to make that connection with the same thing and we just don't use that nomenclature anymore. Or maybe we have non-linguistic ways to get instantaneous downloads or whatever. It could be any number of things. Yeah, no, I agree. What I've always thought about Puharich and the Nine is, it seems very unlikely to me that from 1953 until basically his whole life, he was just going through life and these experiments just knowing, oh, this is all just made up and from the very beginning has been a cover for mind control. Because there's a lot of people out there who think that, who preach that, like the Nine was basically this made-up concept to do mind-control experiments on unwitting people. But I just don't buy that, because he was just way too intelligent, and there's all sorts of stories of his personal life with women, and I just don't feel like he's the kind of person who was able to just be like, I'm going to secretly do this my whole entire life and never admit it. To me that doesn't make any sense. So my point is, it does seem like there is some reality to the Nine thing, to that communication, whether or not it turned into a way to get people to work with him. Sure, that could have been a part of it, but my point is it doesn't seem like it was just this big psi all along, and that's it, it's just too simple to say it that way. And that's how I feel about the Project Stargate stuff as well. Getting to know some of these remote viewers to some degree, some of these guys, I've had this guy Paul Smith on my show three times now and hung out with him in person, and I just hung out with him again at Contact in the Desert. This guy hit major in the army, retired, went and got a PhD in philosophy to study psi more, was very into parapsychology, very interested anytime this stuff comes up, he's paying attention to disclosure, when all the psionic-asset stuff dropped he became very interested and engaged. That doesn't seem like somebody who is part of some weird psyop. And by the way, he's continued to teach remote viewing his whole life as well. It doesn't give that flavor of somebody who was involved in some weird thing and now they just want to leave it behind. It gives the flavor of somebody who feels like they glimpsed something mysterious about the nature of reality that they're still trying to make sense of, and they're going to spend their whole life trying to make sense of that. And that's the vibe I get anyway. So yeah, man, it's so tempting to just want to keep going deeper and deeper down these rabbit holes, but then you see this brilliant man spent his whole life trying to get to the bottom of it himself, and it probably drove him at least partially insane, and ruined his life. And I guess we should get to the end of the story, where maybe it's not the end of the story, but a major part of the story is that this house where all the space-kid stuff is going on gets very mysteriously burned down. Yeah, that was in 78, and it was pretty dramatic. The kids were jumping out of windows, and basically they determined that, there was an official arson investigation, it was in the newspapers, but they determined like, yeah, this was not accidental, this was an attack in the sense that we can tell somebody came in and drizzled flammable liquid in such a way. So it's hard to determine who did it. A lot of people suspect it was an effort to destroy his research there. But at the end of the day it did happen, and that was when he fled. He went to Mexico, so he lived there for almost four years in hiding essentially. But it does make you ask the question, what did he know, and what was going on there that was so real and so important that some group said this can't be happening here and caused that. So we don't know. And again, I've never held a document in my hand that said the CIA did the fire, but it just, that's what he thought, he was very, and many other people thought that as well. Because again, many people believed it was, like, he went too far, he knew too much, he was going out and being way too open and talking about this stuff, and basically, shut him up, that was a way to do that, and a way to destroy the work that was there, potentially documents, potentially MK-ULTRA-related things, who knows. But it was very clearly, let's destroy this work, this physical stuff that's in his house. And even his death kind of follows this pattern, right? Even his death, we don't really know what happened. It could have been a totally normal death from falling down the stairs, or it could have been something more nefarious. Yeah. The last thing I'll say, and I've said it before, so, Jacobo Grinberg, he's the Mexican scientist, there's an amazing documentary about him, I want to plug it any chance I can, it's on Netflix, I think it's called The Secret of Dr. Grinberg. He knew Puharich, they were both in the same field, parapsychology, psychic phenomena, everything. They were absolutely together at one point in Mexico, we know that. He, I can't remember the exact timeline, Pablo knows way more about this, he talks about it a lot, he's awesome, he'll correct me on this, but it was late 1994, Jacobo Grinberg goes missing. Keep in mind, to this day no one knows what happened to him, it's never been solved, they never found him, they never found a body. He disappears in I think it was December 1994. And in January 1995, less than a month later, Puharich, you know, found dead at his house. They were both looking at the same stuff for a long period of time. Stargate officially ends in 95 shortly after that. So again, just a very weird coincidence, not saying anything more than that. But the weird thing is Grinberg disappeared, and if you see the documentary about him, which is awesome, it's very complicated and they get into what may have happened to him, but they never found him. He could, I doubt he's still alive because he was probably older back then, but with Puharich, he actually was found dead unfortunately, but this guy is just, to this day, considered an open case. So people suspect with him, the theory is he was brought to some undisclosed location to work with the government or something. But it's just weird, within that period of time, both those guys, that happens, very weird, Stargate ends, it's they come out in the papers, government spends $24 million and it was nothing, didn't prove anything, so clearly they're trying to stop something, they're trying to quiet something. Odd coincidence. That is the impression that I get, many odd coincidences. Yeah, man, such a tangled, fascinating web. Tell people the name of the documentary, and when's it going to drop. Yeah, end of summer. It's called Mind Traveler. And so very quickly, I started this platform called the Cosmic Clock, cosmicclock.net, and that is an effort that I started to release materials that weren't in the film. So all these tapes, these documents, there's no other place they would really end up besides a box, so I just said, this is really important, this is cool and interesting, and I want to release it. So on the Cosmic Clock I've begun releasing some of this material, but we're going to release updates on the film and trailer and things like that on there as well. So, Mind Traveler, some cool stuff we're putting up there. Yeah, dude, thank you so much, this has been so much fun. Thank you, man, appreciate it. Some of my favorite topics, and I think some of the audience's favorite topics too, man. So, yeah, see you.